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	<title>Comments on: The Aryan-Dravidian divide myth</title>
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	<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/</link>
	<description>A Blog on Indian History</description>
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		<title>By: vakibs</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17443</link>
		<dc:creator>vakibs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17443</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting speculation G.V.Subramaniam.. But I don&#039;t think it is related to languages. Both Tamil and Sanskrit originated just a few thousand years ago (not beyond 10,000 years ago) and the events you speak of happened 70,000 years ago.

It is possible that cultural memories of these events existed in the mythologies of various people.. but I don&#039;t think ethno-linguistics is related to this at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting speculation G.V.Subramaniam.. But I don&#8217;t think it is related to languages. Both Tamil and Sanskrit originated just a few thousand years ago (not beyond 10,000 years ago) and the events you speak of happened 70,000 years ago.</p>
<p>It is possible that cultural memories of these events existed in the mythologies of various people.. but I don&#8217;t think ethno-linguistics is related to this at all.</p>
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		<title>By: G.V.Subramaniam</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17386</link>
		<dc:creator>G.V.Subramaniam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 07:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17386</guid>
		<description>There are several versions of Puranas and &#039;tansliterally reading them&#039; they all say one thing common that Vaivasvata Manu, the progenator of the 10sons( Ikshvaku and others) and a Daughter Ila was originally a King of Dravida Desa, presentday Tamil Nadu/Andhra. The Matsya legend describes his escaping the flood. He is appearing near Ayodya subsequently. There is a temple at Manali to mark his landing after the Flood.
But, curiously,his early progeny expand to Punjab(Pururava of Three Agnis) and to Narmada(Mandhata and others) and not in Gangetic Plain as one might like to believe.
Was the Gangetic Plain hostile, slushy, poisonous? Till much later, Bhageeratha chooses to open up (as per  Literal Reading of Puranas)
In this context two sets of info appealed to me. 
One is , the recent Genetic studies reveal 50,000 year old Haplo Markers in some Tamil Nadu castes and 35000 year old Haplo Markers in Eastern UP and tapering off towards Punjab.
Second is Mt.Toba Explosion about 70000 years ago (Stephen Oppenheimer)
Would I be right in assuming that Manu was carried by a huge Tidal Bore up the Ganges?
Further Tsunami of this size leave the ground Saline and Hostile for several Generations.
I came across several Scientific Papers on Arsenic in ground depths in Bihar/Bengal ,and invariably they start with Mt.Toba Explosion as possible Source.
The Sagar Beaches in Bengal are famous from time immemorial where people offer Prayers to the dead and gone on Mahalaya (All Souls Day)
Please advise if I have any substance in the above observation to explain the mixing ANI &amp; ASI.
This also means Proto Tamil is the Mother of Rg Vedic Sanskrit with the Austro Asiatic (Munda ) language mixing with it ( Pl refer Devi Mahatmyam/ DeviSuktam a part of Rg veda , mentioning Chanda-Munda Names)
G.V.Subramaniam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are several versions of Puranas and &#8216;tansliterally reading them&#8217; they all say one thing common that Vaivasvata Manu, the progenator of the 10sons( Ikshvaku and others) and a Daughter Ila was originally a King of Dravida Desa, presentday Tamil Nadu/Andhra. The Matsya legend describes his escaping the flood. He is appearing near Ayodya subsequently. There is a temple at Manali to mark his landing after the Flood.<br />
But, curiously,his early progeny expand to Punjab(Pururava of Three Agnis) and to Narmada(Mandhata and others) and not in Gangetic Plain as one might like to believe.<br />
Was the Gangetic Plain hostile, slushy, poisonous? Till much later, Bhageeratha chooses to open up (as per  Literal Reading of Puranas)<br />
In this context two sets of info appealed to me.<br />
One is , the recent Genetic studies reveal 50,000 year old Haplo Markers in some Tamil Nadu castes and 35000 year old Haplo Markers in Eastern UP and tapering off towards Punjab.<br />
Second is Mt.Toba Explosion about 70000 years ago (Stephen Oppenheimer)<br />
Would I be right in assuming that Manu was carried by a huge Tidal Bore up the Ganges?<br />
Further Tsunami of this size leave the ground Saline and Hostile for several Generations.<br />
I came across several Scientific Papers on Arsenic in ground depths in Bihar/Bengal ,and invariably they start with Mt.Toba Explosion as possible Source.<br />
The Sagar Beaches in Bengal are famous from time immemorial where people offer Prayers to the dead and gone on Mahalaya (All Souls Day)<br />
Please advise if I have any substance in the above observation to explain the mixing ANI &amp; ASI.<br />
This also means Proto Tamil is the Mother of Rg Vedic Sanskrit with the Austro Asiatic (Munda ) language mixing with it ( Pl refer Devi Mahatmyam/ DeviSuktam a part of Rg veda , mentioning Chanda-Munda Names)<br />
G.V.Subramaniam.</p>
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		<title>By: Swati</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17348</link>
		<dc:creator>Swati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17348</guid>
		<description>KN, 

There is no stark difference, as the paper points out. There were two separate groups in the past, which then gradually mixed, as humans tend to. 

I, personally, do not believe that my belonging to a particular group is a good enough reason to assert the superiority of that group. The trouble with that is that you don&#039;t get a long or impressive enough pedigree. You want impressive, I can trace my lineage all the way back to prokaryotes roughly 4 billion years ago. Prokaryota pride y&#039;all, we were the first creatures on earth! We OWN it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KN, </p>
<p>There is no stark difference, as the paper points out. There were two separate groups in the past, which then gradually mixed, as humans tend to. </p>
<p>I, personally, do not believe that my belonging to a particular group is a good enough reason to assert the superiority of that group. The trouble with that is that you don&#8217;t get a long or impressive enough pedigree. You want impressive, I can trace my lineage all the way back to prokaryotes roughly 4 billion years ago. Prokaryota pride y&#8217;all, we were the first creatures on earth! We OWN it!</p>
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		<title>By: Swati</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17347</link>
		<dc:creator>Swati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17347</guid>
		<description>This is a matter of scientific integrity, so leave the politics out. 

This study far from &#039;knocks out&#039; the Aryan invasion theory. It confirms it, as linguistic and archaeological evidence does. 

The misconception that most people have at this stage is that Aryans are European. Only Hitler and his henchmen believed that. Most historians now realize that the early Indo-Europeans (PIE speakers) lived around Central Asia a few thousand years ago, probably closer to India than to Europe. They then spread their culture, their practice of horse rearing, and their language outwards. 

Now referring to the paper, North Indians are said to belong to the Ancestral North Indian group, or ANI. Note that in the paper, Pathans have a higher percentage of ANI than Kashmiri Pandits or any other Indian groups. You will no doubt note that this actually points to an origin north-west of India, and NOT within present day India. 

If you read the actual paper, you will note that the scientists claims to the press were contrary to their claims in the paper.  As a scientist, I&#039;m outraged and offended at their press claims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a matter of scientific integrity, so leave the politics out. </p>
<p>This study far from &#8216;knocks out&#8217; the Aryan invasion theory. It confirms it, as linguistic and archaeological evidence does. </p>
<p>The misconception that most people have at this stage is that Aryans are European. Only Hitler and his henchmen believed that. Most historians now realize that the early Indo-Europeans (PIE speakers) lived around Central Asia a few thousand years ago, probably closer to India than to Europe. They then spread their culture, their practice of horse rearing, and their language outwards. </p>
<p>Now referring to the paper, North Indians are said to belong to the Ancestral North Indian group, or ANI. Note that in the paper, Pathans have a higher percentage of ANI than Kashmiri Pandits or any other Indian groups. You will no doubt note that this actually points to an origin north-west of India, and NOT within present day India. </p>
<p>If you read the actual paper, you will note that the scientists claims to the press were contrary to their claims in the paper.  As a scientist, I&#8217;m outraged and offended at their press claims.</p>
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		<title>By: jk</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17332</link>
		<dc:creator>jk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 06:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17332</guid>
		<description>Shaan,

The Marxist historians and the Western friends would ask if your pride depends on which state the researcher comes from? BTW, the primary author of the paper is a Westerner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaan,</p>
<p>The Marxist historians and the Western friends would ask if your pride depends on which state the researcher comes from? BTW, the primary author of the paper is a Westerner.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaan</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17330</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17330</guid>
		<description>Mr.Thangarajan who is a key researcher in the group that made this discovery is a Tamil. Being a Tamil, I am proud of it! 

What the Marxist historians and their western friends are going to say now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr.Thangarajan who is a key researcher in the group that made this discovery is a Tamil. Being a Tamil, I am proud of it! </p>
<p>What the Marxist historians and their western friends are going to say now?</p>
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		<title>By: jk</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17311</link>
		<dc:creator>jk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 05:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17311</guid>
		<description>Suvrat,

You are right. The one migration is considered to the Big-Bang moment of genetic mixing. I just now made a new post on the ancient trading networks India was part of and it quite clear that there was movement of humans, plants and animals both into India and Out of India many millennia before 1500 BCE.

Agree with you on the part that we need fine grained analysis to find out the date for the ANI-ASI  mixture and other events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suvrat,</p>
<p>You are right. The one migration is considered to the Big-Bang moment of genetic mixing. I just now made a new post on the ancient trading networks India was part of and it quite clear that there was movement of humans, plants and animals both into India and Out of India many millennia before 1500 BCE.</p>
<p>Agree with you on the part that we need fine grained analysis to find out the date for the ANI-ASI  mixture and other events.</p>
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		<title>By: popat2000</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17309</link>
		<dc:creator>popat2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17309</guid>
		<description>Everything under the sun is the gift of the great european minds. Things like colonialization, slavery, prostitution, genocide, and the list goes on. Thanks guys! If you hadnt taught us indians such valuable deeds, we would still be stuck in our stone age, donkey riding, snake charming ways!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything under the sun is the gift of the great european minds. Things like colonialization, slavery, prostitution, genocide, and the list goes on. Thanks guys! If you hadnt taught us indians such valuable deeds, we would still be stuck in our stone age, donkey riding, snake charming ways!</p>
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		<title>By: KN</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17306</link>
		<dc:creator>KN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17306</guid>
		<description>Finally proof of the difference between North Indians and Dravidians! Kudos to the researchers. It doesn&#039;t need research anyway to see the stark difference between the two!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Finally proof of the difference between North Indians and Dravidians! Kudos to the researchers. It doesn&#8217;t need research anyway to see the stark difference between the two!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: suvrat</title>
		<link>http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/the-aryan-dravidian-divide-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-17304</link>
		<dc:creator>suvrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 05:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://varnam.nationalinterest.in/?p=2433#comment-17304</guid>
		<description>jk-

i get the feeling that people think in terms of only one migration and that confuses the issue. MtDNA and Y chromosome data shows that Indians and Eurasians (Europeans) share many of these lineages and most of them show greater diversity in India. That would suggest that these lineages were founded in India and between 40K and 20K Eurasia were peopled by migrations from India. So a component of ANI- European genetic similarity - maybe a major one- would be due to these ancient migrations from India to Eurasia. 

That however does not mean there were no later migrations from Eurasia into India in historical times beginning with the advent of agriculture and continuing post Indus Valley collapse. A component of the ANI-European similarity - relatedness according to caste is hard to explain otherwise- as is the linguistic and archaeological evidence. We are not talking of population replacement here but assimilation or rather introgression of genes in the language of genetics.

Our genomes have multiple layers of migratory history written on them. its going to take finer grained analysis to establish timelines and identify specific sets of genetic variations to specific peoples movements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jk-</p>
<p>i get the feeling that people think in terms of only one migration and that confuses the issue. MtDNA and Y chromosome data shows that Indians and Eurasians (Europeans) share many of these lineages and most of them show greater diversity in India. That would suggest that these lineages were founded in India and between 40K and 20K Eurasia were peopled by migrations from India. So a component of ANI- European genetic similarity &#8211; maybe a major one- would be due to these ancient migrations from India to Eurasia. </p>
<p>That however does not mean there were no later migrations from Eurasia into India in historical times beginning with the advent of agriculture and continuing post Indus Valley collapse. A component of the ANI-European similarity &#8211; relatedness according to caste is hard to explain otherwise- as is the linguistic and archaeological evidence. We are not talking of population replacement here but assimilation or rather introgression of genes in the language of genetics.</p>
<p>Our genomes have multiple layers of migratory history written on them. its going to take finer grained analysis to establish timelines and identify specific sets of genetic variations to specific peoples movements.</p>
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